Curse

MirkoTeran · Dec 05, 2006, 10:01 AM // 10:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inner Salbat

Really? please do list these heaps of places for casual players.

Uh, how about just everything up to Realm of Torment? Prophecies and Factions are walk in the park... (excluding UW/Deep/..)

natano · Dec 05, 2006, 10:30 AM // 10:30

Inner salbat , why do u complain when u not even gona play the missions?????
you like pvp right... i love pvp aswell and these missions are fun aswell coz all the other missions are to easy, i mean you can go throught the whole game with just heroes by your side. Here you actually get to play with real ppl.

So a word of advice to you. Go to pvp where u enjoy urself. U dont have to do the missions if you dont want to.

Inner Salbat · Dec 05, 2006, 10:30 AM // 10:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by MirkoTeran

Uh, how about just everything up to Realm of Torment? Prophecies and Factions are walk in the park... (excluding UW/Deep/..)

Those are not repeatable content, Prophecies, Factions & Nightfall by them selfs without these so called 'elite' missions, is just a story line, to a casual player that wants to keep on playing there is nothing for them that they can casually play, so please try again.

Unless your alluding to people playing the entire story over and over again, I've completed NF twice, I will not do it again that kind of punishment twice was bad enough.

FoW/UW would be acceptable responses, but I should highlight that then I would use the fact that these areas have been around for the last 2 years give or take, and are nothing new.

Quote:

Originally Posted by natano

Inner salbat , why do u complain when u not even gona play the missions?????
you like pvp right... i love pvp aswell and these missions are fun aswell coz all the other missions are to easy, i mean you can go throught the whole game with just heroes by your side. Here you actually get to play with real ppl.

So a word of advice to you. Go to pvp where u enjoy urself. U dont have to do the missions if you dont want to.

Numbers, if I shutt up and say nothing then I'm one less person voicing an opinion for change.

natano · Dec 05, 2006, 10:41 AM // 10:41

well I for one dont want it to change. Its fine the way it is.
Its really not that difficult. if you cant play or adapt to the area then too bad,
It doenst take a cookie cutter build to beat the place it takes knowledge of how to play with your characters and basic gameplay. Its not just about going in and trying to kill kill kill.. you urself plays pvp and u know it involves more strategy than just kill kill kill..

Inner Salbat · Dec 05, 2006, 10:50 AM // 10:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by natano

well I for one dont want it to change. Its fine the way it is.
Its really not that difficult. if you cant play or adapt to the area then too bad,
It doenst take a cookie cutter build to beat the place it takes knowledge of how to play with your characters and basic gameplay. Its not just about going in and trying to kill kill kill.. you urself plays pvp and u know it involves more strategy than just kill kill kill..

Whatever do you mean? PvP is just kill kill kill

Seriously though, yes it does but at least it's an even playing field I get shivers down my spine just thinking about the top 10 guilds being able run around with level 28-31 PvP toons, that would be well yes nasty and thankfully it's not even possible right now.

PvP more or less even playing field (depending on map), with even level players.

PvE ANet it would seam couldn't field an AI team that isn't over power in some way to beat us, by actually coding AI to think worth a damn so they cheap out on little gimmicky things they've done before hoping no one will notice.

Deleet · Dec 05, 2006, 10:53 AM // 10:53

It is an equal battlefield or actually, you are actually at advantage.

Since you have the powers to adapt, AI doesn't.

Sectus · Dec 05, 2006, 10:57 AM // 10:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by jereiter

Maybe I am completely wrong in it...

The idea would be to bring 7 Necros and 1 Ranger.
3 of the 7 necros would be BiP. 4 would be MM. The idea of the whole build is that before taking the quest, all the BiP keep sacrificing themselves (ideally with vampiric weapons or whatever), so that the 4 MM can create minions.

Needed skills would be Heal Area, Death Nova, Flesh Golem, all the create minions skills except the "Animate bone minions".
Good others skills would be Symbiosis, Death Nova, Aegis, Lively was Naomei, Blood of the master, Verata Sacrifice, Dark Aura etc.

When all the 40 minions are made, just take the quest. The ranger then pull the group of Margonites with a longbow, and the minions attack them. The Necros MM stay behind, putting Death nova on their minions, while the BiP put Death Nova on themselves and keep sacrificing themselves on the mobs. Thanks to symbiosis, they are no more at 1 HP (At least Death nova + Dark Aura, possibly Aegis...)

The ranger, I am not too sure, maybe Barrage?

I have not tried it, it is just an idea of a build, but I think it could work. What do you think of it guys?

Cannot try it today, but if anyone is willing to try, will be there Wednesday night, around 9- 10 pm, IGN Warden of the East.

Thanks in advance for any comment, etc.

I've actually tried a form of minion factory in DoA. There's a very effective method of raising enough minions.

We used Death Pact Signet chain to get the minions. We had 1 BiP'er sac himself to death, then another person would use Death Pact Signet (and yet another person would use Death Pact Signet on that person). Whenever all 3 of them died we had our rezmer use Flesh of my Flesh to res one of the persons using Death Pact Signet.

The advantage of using DPS is that it gives NO death penalty. Only the BiP'er got any death penatly, which meant we only had 1 player who would be generally useless.

When our 4 MMs had a good amount of minions we'd head out and wreck havoc. The minions were able to tank just about any group, although they died fast. It's not exactly the best team build to use, but it does work for killing the monsters in DoA. I'm not sure if any of the quests can be done with the build though. And the build one has major drawback, it takes a long time to get the minions back after each fight, which makes the build dull in the long run.

This is how the team build looked like in detail:

R/N or N/R: Blood is Power, Winnowing, Predatory Season, Nature's Renewal
(the saccer, with some spirits helping the minions)

2 Rt/X or X/Rt: Death Pact Signet
(part of the res chain, the rest of their build can be anything. I recommend some form of damage dealer)

Me/Rt: Flesh of my Flesh
(the rezmer. Can be any class actually, but the res process is faster as a primary mesmer)

4 MMs

natano · Dec 05, 2006, 10:59 AM // 10:59

yes anet made their lvl 28 goons really tough and with some insane skills aswell. But hey u cant expect them to make a mob of lvl 20s with a certain build for 1 mob that would just make it to easy as we as real players will easily counter the build in no time. So what they do is give them more power to deal with the good and sometimes bad builds us real players come up with.
Thus making it more interesting for us to try and overthrow anet's ai.

Grolubao · Dec 05, 2006, 12:11 PM // 12:11

Very original build Sectus, great work out there

I woudl suggest Sectus using M/Rt and have some self healing so you can fit order of the undeath in each of the mm's

Gusnana1412 · Dec 05, 2006, 12:23 PM // 12:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sectus

I've actually tried a form of minion factory in DoA. There's a very effective method of raising enough minions.

We used Death Pact Signet chain to get the minions. We had 1 BiP'er sac himself to death, then another person would use Death Pact Signet (and yet another person would use Death Pact Signet on that person). Whenever all 3 of them died we had our rezmer use Flesh of my Flesh to res one of the persons using Death Pact Signet.

The advantage of using DPS is that it gives NO death penalty. Only the BiP'er got any death penatly, which meant we only had 1 player who would be generally useless.

When our 4 MMs had a good amount of minions we'd head out and wreck havoc. The minions were able to tank just about any group, although they died fast. It's not exactly the best team build to use, but it does work for killing the monsters in DoA. I'm not sure if any of the quests can be done with the build though. And the build one has major drawback, it takes a long time to get the minions back after each fight, which makes the build dull in the long run.

This is how the team build looked like in detail:

R/N or N/R: Blood is Power, Winnowing, Predatory Season, Nature's Renewal
(the saccer, with some spirits helping the minions)

2 Rt/X or X/Rt: Death Pact Signet
(part of the res chain, the rest of their build can be anything. I recommend some form of damage dealer)

Me/Rt: Flesh of my Flesh
(the rezmer. Can be any class actually, but the res process is faster as a primary mesmer)

4 MMs

Let me join your party

>sacrifice ranger<

Ninna · Dec 05, 2006, 12:39 PM // 12:39

lol - reminded me of Everquest and "RangerGate"

ChaoticCoyote · Dec 05, 2006, 12:48 PM // 12:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deleet

Since you have the powers to adapt, AI doesn't.

The *current* AI can not adapt.

An adaptive AI *could* be written for a game like Guild Wars, using evolutionary programming techniques.

However, doing so would be a monumental effort, and is likely to produce unexpected behaviors. Consider Oblivion, which had to "dumb down" their AI when it started doing things they couldn't control or predict (whole villages getting into AI wars.)

How much howling do you think ANet would hear if they built an AI that learned from players? Let's say the AI started using a different monster mix based on past player choices -- people would get mighty grouchy if their cookie cutter group was suddenly rendered ineffective.

Economically, game companies have a difficult time justifying the sort of expense required for creating an advanced AI. Pretty graphics impress reviewers; smart monsters don't.

Bloodthorn · Dec 05, 2006, 12:49 PM // 12:49

I've just managed to get up to Abbadons Gate in the Realm of Anguish and I can say it is the worst area for casual gamers to play not only are the monsters way overpowered unless you have happened to know every skill in the book to plan your perfect build and as for the poor newcomers who have only bought the Nighfall campaign how on earth their suppost to get through it is beyond me.

Plus the fact that every one seems to hate Dervishes I've managed to do mostly all the mission by my self since no one want to party with a Dervish and wading through that Elitist crap that is the realm of Anguish is about as much fun as driving a blunt metal spike slowly through the eyeball.

jereiter · Dec 05, 2006, 12:52 PM // 12:52

So my idea is not that bad.

I though a minute ago that the problem with blood is power is that it will heal EVERY DAMN MINION, resulting in a 80% sacrifice...Maybe include Aura of The Lich? But that would be another Elite...

Sure, it will takes a lot of time...I think Death Nova could be great, as well as Symbiosis.

But yes, it'll take a lot of time...Still, I am willing to try it

I have spent a lot of time in PuG trying to kill Margonites to no avail...So I am ready to do it even if it is a bit long. With the time going, the build might be ameliorated.

Congrats for the Death Pact Signet. I have not Ritualist and did not think about it...

garethporlest18 · Dec 05, 2006, 12:56 PM // 12:56

Why adapt when Anet can just change it. It's very simple. Anyways, I adapted by playing a different more fun game.

My time in Anguish dying was okay, I liked the chest runs better, gold drops are the only thing that makes this game fun for me. Occasionally playing with friends does too, but usually that's because I get a gold drop.

So GoA was fun for maybe 2 days, but much like the whole of GW, is boring to me now. Challenge to me is only fun when I have people to defeat that challenge with.

Chaotic, that's the game that I'm playing instead of GW. As far as I'm concerned Rag doll physics>GW.

You'd see me on GW often, but what I'm doing is talking to friends or talking in Grotto or some other town, not actually playing the content anymore.

TSCavalier · Dec 05, 2006, 12:58 PM // 12:58

You know, ANet has the ability to track statistics with regards to maps/zones, how many people play them, how long they play, how successful players are. Heck, they even track the statistics of what skills you use.

The best way to "vote" against a un-fun map is to simply not play it. If ANet takes any pride in the (beautiful) locations and impressive monsters that they have created, they will try to encourage people to see them.

Evidence of this is clear if you look at the difference between Prophecies, Factions, and Nightfall. It seems that each chapter progressively has you staying in the same "places" longer (or repeatedly) or making sure that there's a purpose for exploring every nook and cranny of the world. The same happened when they exposed the elite missions of Factions.

Prophecies seems to have a lot of "dead" areas, where nobody goes because there's simply nothing there to do... or it's too hard...

So, as soon as people get tired of crashing against the rocks, they will play other areas and DoA will be a ghost town... seems like a waste.

Personally, I would rather see 100% of an "easy" game than 50% of a "hard" game. I have little patience or time for playing the same map over and over and over, getting wiped every attempt. Three tries is about my limit before the fun factor ends and frustration begins. I can go play some other game where I can be successful. I have enough sources of stress in my life.

HOWEVER, I fully respect that there should be "l33t" areas of the game. The reason for this is simply that different players play at different skill levels. If DoA is the hardest-of-the-hard of Guild Wars, then I think it has a place. I have plenty of fun playing the "normal" areas just fine so long as playing the hardest areas aren't required... or a gateway to get to large portions of the rest of the game.

Antheus · Dec 05, 2006, 01:03 PM // 13:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlandry

I find it funny that people say the average players can't complete this... the average players aren't done with the game yet. Sorry but if you think the majority people who frequent this forum are average players, you have it all wrong. The average players are those that bought the game and play once in a while to have fun even if they are (most likely) no good at the game, not those that rushed through the game in a week to get rare skins.

The group I completed the city with had a person who started playing with nightfall.

Playing a monk even.

Had to buy some skills before we went.

Didn't even know what candy canes are.

Team play, cooperation, patience, willingness to learn. That is what determines who is leet down there.

Deleet · Dec 05, 2006, 01:10 PM // 13:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote

The *current* AI can not adapt.

An adaptive AI *could* be written for a game like Guild Wars, using evolutionary programming techniques.

However, doing so would be a monumental effort, and is likely to produce unexpected behaviors. Consider Oblivion, which had to "dumb down" their AI when it started doing things they couldn't control or predict (whole villages getting into AI wars.)

How much howling do you think ANet would hear if they built an AI that learned from players? Let's say the AI started using a different monster mix based on past player choices -- people would get mighty grouchy if their cookie cutter group was suddenly rendered ineffective.

Economically, game companies have a difficult time justifying the sort of expense required for creating an advanced AI. Pretty graphics impress reviewers; smart monsters don't.

This is still the future and is not quite doable, yet

even though i could imagine Guild Wars comming out with AI with adaptabillity.

Antheus · Dec 05, 2006, 01:21 PM // 13:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deleet

This is still the future and is not quite doable, yet

even though i could imagine Guild Wars comming out with AI with adaptabillity.

Oh no, it's extremly doable.

But look at Shiro. He's a complete idiot. He goes and attacks the fully protected stance tank. And there's hundreds of posts of how difficult he is.

Now imagine Shiro that kites you. Then jumps in to spike your healer and retreats. Waits till you rez, or better yet, waits till the other monk uses rebirth. That very second he jumps in, kills both monks again, and runs away, kiting everyone.

Then he repeats that until you're dped out. If you try to attack him, he runs up to one of the shrines to agro more mobs. Not only that, but all 4 mobs now body block 3 casters, and kill them, then they all retreat.

And when everyone is at 60 dp, he starts running around, doing /laugh.

Or better yet, what if shiro actively attacked members in such manner to deplete first their soft rez, then kill only the players with hard rez, leaving the remaining 3 or 4 without healing, and with no way to rez?

You do not want smart AI.

Cebe · Dec 05, 2006, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bloodthorn

as for the poor newcomers who have only bought the Nighfall campaign how on earth their suppost to get through it is beyond me.

...especially since people start demanding they bring certain skills which are, more than likely, not Nightfall skills.

*cough* Meteor Shower *cough*